Non-stretch jeans are actually not as scary as you might imagine.

All the fashion guys I know have been waxing poetic about rigid, non-stretch jeans for years—but, as a woman, I’ve always felt there’s little incentive to give up my stretchy, comfy denim for a pair of stiff, hard pants. Until now.

Late last week, I stopped by the Levi’s Made & Crafted and Levi’s Vintage Clothing showroom to see my friend, creative director Miles Johnson, who full-on sold me on rigid jeans. He says that non-stretch jeans may seem scary, but at the end of the day, they’re way more flattering, won’t wear out as fast, and provide a much more customized fit in the long run.

Here’s what we talked about:

Danica: Miles. Do women actually want rigid jeans?

Miles: Not at the moment, but they should!

Danica: Let’s talk about this. Men are obsessed with the idea of rigid jeans. What’s up with that? Why don’t guys like stretch jeans?

Miles: I think some guys like stretch jeans, but they don’t want to know they’re stretch.

Danica: It has to be secret?

Miles: Guys just want comfy. But then I think there’s an experience that you get from wearing a rigid jean that you will not get from wearing stretch. It’s one of those things that happens over time—they mold to the shape of your body.

Danica: But women are different from men. Women have more squidgy parts, so wearing a harder jean is a different experience for a woman, right?

Miles: It’s a different experience, but we’ve got 141 years of making jeans behind us, so it puts us at an advantage point as understanding to how to take a really stiff fabric like denim and be able to craft it into a fit that really works for women to begin with. And, actually, I’m always talking about the 501—because it’s really the heart and soul of the brand, but there are so many of those 501 fits that are so amazing on women, and what with the whole “boyfriend” thing that’s going on at the moment. I think there’s so much in taking on this boyish feeling of rigid denim—and it doesn’t have to be really heavy rigid denim, I think you can do a 9- or 10-ounce denim.

Danica: This one’s not that heavy, right? (Talking about the new Made & Crafted rigid jeans pictured above and top.)

Miles: That’s like 11-ounce, and there’s a lot of starch in it. You’ll wear that, and at first, it’ll feel really stiff. Two days later, it’ll be soft and buttery. It keeps its shape—if you get the fit right, it’s really flattering and flattening. It’s not going to stretch out, it’s not going to give you a bad shape. It kind of smooths everything out.

Danica: So what should it feel like the first time you put it on? Like, when you’re trying jeans on in a fitting room, I think women expect a lot of comfort.

Miles: Tight. They should feel tight. Just keep in mind they’ll probably ease off about an inch or inch and a half.

Danica: Over time?

Miles: They’ll feel like they’re squeezing your butt—they may be tight across your hips, or tight across your stomach. Just bear with it. If you’re impatient, I suggest you just climb into the shower.

Danica: The shower! OK, so guys always talk about this—how you have to get the jeans wet. So you put them on in the shower, and then what do you do?

Miles: Just keep them on. Do some little squats.

Danica: Squats! We should do an Instagram video series on wearing jeans in the shower and doing squats.

Miles: It’s something that people talk about for men’s all the time. You get those guys who are really geeky, who are into their selvedge denim, they do it the right way; they don’t wash them and all that. That’s a choice thing. That’s just something a lot of guys like to do because they think they’re doing it the right way. But there is no right way. You have to find your own way.

Danica: What do you recommend? If you’re impatient, you wear them in the shower, and then what do you do? Wear them until you can’t take it anymore? Do you wear them until they’re dry?

Miles: A lot of people do it in the summer and they go out in the sun. But we’re in New York, so I think the thing to do is wear them in the shower, do a few squats, and then slide out of them. And then hang them up over the shower head and then let them drip dry. Put them on afterward and they’re going to be really crispy, but they’re going to be more your shape. Just wear them for a day—honestly, you’ll fall in love with the fit.

Danica: What is the deal with washing jeans? A lot of guys don’t wash their jeans for, like, six months after they first get them. Gross, huh?

Miles: I think a delicate 30-degree wash with a very small amount of detergent inside out. And then if you can bear it, put them back on again when they’re damp, but that’s not important. But once you’ve first-time stretched them out, they’re going to start to have some kind of memory. But it does sort of start ease the garment into a certain shape.

Danica: In your experience, what is the sweet spot for breaking in jeans—like, how long do you have to wear them before they’re perfect.

Miles: I actually have my brother break in jeans for me.

Danica: What? You have your brother break them in? How do you get them back after they’re all nice and soft?

Miles: Well, I did a bit of work on him. I told him he looks really good in rigid jeans. So what I do is when I see they’re not looking very rigid anymore, I say, “Do you want me have those old ones and I’ll give you a new pair.”

Danica: And he still falls for it?

Miles: He still falls for it.

Do you wear non-stretch jeans? Would you try them? Tell us what you think in the comments below! And be sure to check out Levi’s Made & Crafted label, which is now available for the first time ever online at Levi.com!